|
欢迎您加入维基百科大家庭！在动手之前，请先抽出时间了解我们的版权信息（还有一篇Wikipedia:简明版权信息帮助您理解），并阅读Wikipedia:如何编辑页面、守则与指导、中性的观点及Wikipedia:帮助。维基百科是自由的百科全书，请不要加入受版权保护的内容。您可以到Wikipedia:沙盒中实验一下，有什么问题请到Wikipedia:互助客栈提出，或者直接与我联系。您也可以在右上方的参数设置“您的昵称（签名时用）:”旁边放下你喜欢的署名，在讨论后便请签名。希望您会喜欢这里。 |
--Wing 11:10 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Revert of 中华民国 编辑
Hello Ianm2000uk,
I reverted your first change for several reasons. It is not because you added aka Taiwan ROC. This is not the matter. It is a convention in Projekt:Country, that at this position should stay the name of the country in its official language. As english is not an official language of ROC, so I don't see any point to put it at this position. For the second, you removed the links to 国家面积列表 and 国家人口列表. I don't see the point for this removal. Also this is a convention we use for all country articles. Third, you added the table at the end of the article. Also this is not necessary. At first there's already MediaWikis for this topic in the simplified version. You can see it there at the bottom of the article. It is far more elegant. Second it is not right to handle Hongkong and Macao as a country, because they are not, they are even not a countrylike territory. So, that was the three changes you made in your first change. Yes, I made the reverse with one click (though I did checked all your changes before I made that click), because I didn't see any point of your changes and I think it's ok if I don't make the reverse change manually as at last it would just be the same as the click. --Wing 13:50 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Split? 编辑
Hello Ian,
thanks for your reply. I would take care that I would not use reverse so easily in the future. Thanks for the advice. I see it could be offending.
I followed the issue in the english mailinglist. I personally have no problem in reading an article in mixed simplified and traditional chinese. But I should surely not project my own experience into others. Indeed we are working on a programmatic solution for the problem, so that either an automatical synchronization of the both versions or an automatical conversion on the server would be made. Though the problem is not quite easy, we think it is manageable.
I personally don't live in China or in Taiwan and I am quite neutral to this issue. But I think it is not a good idea to separate the language, because as you can see now, the mainlanders and the taiwanese must manage to see that the articles are ballanced, so that the NPOV is aproved for both sides. Though it could be an illusion, I hope this is a good method to make the people know each other, see the point of the view of the other side and comprehend that the otherside have their reasons. I believe this worked quite well until now. But if we separate the language, I believe we would lose a lot of things. I would not like to see that each side ignore the oppinion of the other side and make them self believe that only that what they are told until now are the truth. If we separate the language, it would also be possible that the chinese government would feel far more easier to take over the simplified version and make it in their line.
So, I think there's many very good reason not to separate the language.
I confess that until we get the software solution at least running 80%, the situation now is very unsatisfied. So one of the most urgent thing to do here is to work on that software solution. --Wing 14:42 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
- we have discussed the possibility of spliting Chinese Wikipedia into two versions, but it turned out to be unpractical. the first reason for this maybe the policy of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is divided into several language versions by "language", just like there is no need for a "American English Wikipedia", a "British English Wikipedia", a "Canadian Wikipedia" etc, there is no need for a "Simplified Chinese Wikipedia" and a "Traditional Chinese Wikipedia". secondly, even though we are split in reality, we don't want to be split on Internet. Spliting Chinese Wikipedia will finally cause two incompletely and may be (probably be) complete different wikipedia, the drain out of the limited Wikipedians may not be a good idea for this already frail wikipedia. the most practical approach is to redesign the software so that it is adapted to this situation. and we are glad to see some programming elites are on their way solving this problem. please be patient. (P.S. I guess you may be interested in reading Wikipedia:繁简体问题 :D )--Samuel (talk) 14:43 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
ROC=Taiwan?! 编辑
In Wikipedia, ROC includes Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and other small islets. Taipei and Kaohsiung aren't included in Taiwan Province.试吃那人 15:28 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
我是台湾网友（不是管理员）。关于你编辑的部分，你的用心我可以体会；在长时间编辑的成果后被其他人抹去，这种感觉是我一开始来这里最大的挫折。随着编辑次数的增多，使我逐渐了解这里“中立性”的原则，关于你的疑问，我的立场如下：
1.中华民国不等于台湾省。这句话对两岸的读者来说，都是不能接受的。对台湾读者而言，中华民国不是中华人民共和国的一省；对大陆读者而言，中华民国等于台湾省，有独立的味道。因此你的称呼很容易引起争议。（例如曾经有读者将中华民国简称为台湾，好像就违反中立性）
2.台湾行政区的编排。关于这点，台北市与高雄市是直辖市，并不隶属于台湾省。其次，由于中华民国宪法增修条文已经将“省”虚级化，因此到台湾旅游时，其实省的称呼已经少用。因此前面的创作者才会将25个直辖市、县市并列。当然，你若将北高两市与台闽两省并列，我乐观其成。
3.关于基本资料表格的内部链接，原来是使用台湾的用词，内部连接到简体版的大陆用词，你的用词我不知道是否是香港的用语。但原则上条目的创建这里有一定的优先级，例如简体字版以大陆用语为主，东南亚海外用语为辅。当然如果其他读者认为你的用语更贴切，也许等一下就会改成你的用词。
管理员的态度已经宽大，至少比我当初来此地要来的容忍许多。有些原则我心中不能接受，但我尊重这里规则。因此我才会继续留下来编辑，现在除非这些具有争议的页面会引起极大的笔战，否则我很少原文贴回去。 试吃那人 16:49 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
使用繁体的人口 编辑
你忘了还有香港。 --Djyang 15:48 2004年6月18日 (UTC) - 啊，你是香港来的。何不在你的 "用户页面" 做个自介？对于简体中文，与其说是不容易看懂，倒不如说是愿不愿意去看懂。我刚开始是持排斥态度，但是试着去接受后，其实很好看懂的。有ㄧ些字我还是看不懂，但是稍微前后文对照一下还是可以猜出是什么字。至于简体人口看繁体文字，如果你有注意看 talk page 里头的过去讨论，他们是看得懂得。
在台湾，年轻一代接触简体中文的机会比以前多很多，新加坡则是国家推行中文字简化运动，香港则已经是PRC的一部分。所以你所担心的看不懂问题，是你自己的考量，还是大众?
目前zh.wikipedia 已经被PRC封锁，未来怎么样不晓得，但是过去几年的大陆网友的"中立性"努力却是不可忽视。
建议你多花些时间看一下zh.wikipedia.org(main page 有个繁体link)。 But it does raise a very good issue -- New members, especially 繁体人字使用人口, make take a long while to understand what is going on. --Djyang 16:23 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
--quote"我记得家人都看不懂那些简体字.也许下一代的人都会看的懂简体字吧"
呵呵呵呵，我也是觉得不好看，习惯问题吧，看习惯了就好多了。有个日本网站，有兴趣你可以去看一下，用 google 查 日本文化物语 ，站长是中日混血，在台湾长大，她翻译有 阴阳师。 --Djyang 17:49 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
about the table you made亚洲列表 编辑
- Personally, I love it. I thought about making it a Template, so it can be applied to other pages. --Djyang 16:39 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
- hehe, well, this is the thing. Before I do any changes, or make any new stuff, I check first and make sure they don't step on each other's toes. So, I'm still "observing". :)
-- This is how you make a template: hxxp://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:<name>
It's identical to creating a page -- the only difference is the "Template:" prefix. ---Djyang 22:59 2004年6月20日 (UTC)
- I like the method you use in re-sorting the Asian countries. It's more logical than the original one, since I don't use "汉语拼音" at all it's very hard for me to figure out the sequence of Chinese words in the old table. In the beginning I thought to suggest re-arranging them according to English alphabets of their original names, but right now I will give a vote to the zoning method! However, which naming system does everyone prefer to use for making the list in traditional Chinese? I use the naming mainly from Taiwan's 国立编译馆 since it's a more systematic source I know so far, however, sometimes they do using some stupid names if you understand their meanings in original languages. For example, I gave up the official translation "奥兰叶斯塔" for the Aruban capital Oranjestad but use "橘城" instead. Because I know the importance of orange color for Dutch people and why did they name the city like this.--SElephant 14:51 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
Clarify 编辑
one thing i have to remind u is, we don't care about any "political sensitive" issues, we obey the NPOV. if you mean we have to split in order to please the PRC government or ROC government, i will strongly oppose that idea: it's explicitly going against NPOV, i would rather it's blocked by the PRC government than ruin the NPOV. the articles you mentioned ( Taiwan being a part of Japan in history, Tiananmen massacre, or the issue of Senkaku shoutou/Diaoyu islands dispute) of course will (most of them already have) have an entry seperately. and about the software, of course the interface will be changed into traditional/simplified chinese completely. once the sofeware is completed, u will not see a single simplified chinese character in the articles! (kidding) --Samuel (talk) 17:48 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Localized labels 编辑
Good job on Sinicizing Image:JP-map.png! The thing about Japanese or Korean placenames is that there is absolutely no excuse in leaving them in English, since they both use 汉字 in proper names virtually always. 加油！ It looks very flawless. 天衣无针。 It must've been hard trying to remove the original labels from the islands and coasts and then replacing them again. 赞！ --Menchi (讨论页)Â 05:33 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
繁简体问题 编辑
中文版未来将最终解决繁简体问题，实现繁简体的自动切换。因此现在最好不要讲一个条目分成两个版本。这是我的一点建议。否则，将来的工作量会很大--百无一用是书生 (Talk) 06:18 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
其实，繁简体混排也可以呀。我的意思是没有必要创建两个版本，但是用简体或者繁体都可以新建文章--百无一用是书生 (Talk) 06:59 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
Toponym 编辑
I replied at Image talk:Mongolia map.png. --Menchi (讨论页)Â 23:46 2004年6月22日 (UTC)
日韩地图翻译 编辑
辛苦了，弄得很漂亮，不知道你的电脑里是否另外安装黑体字？
地图上的用语每个国家均会以自己的习惯语来命名，由于日韩存在有领土问题，因此对于地名的命名具有主权含意。
1.独岛或竹岛。建议你两者并列！因为这个岛屿目前为韩国所占领，但日本也宣称是其领土。（日本称“竹岛”，韩国称“独岛”）
2.日本九州与韩国之间的海峡。在对马岛以西所谓的“西水道”，译为朝鲜海峡；“东水道”译为对马海峡。这样日韩皆平等，东水道与西水道可不用加入（华人罕用）。
3.朝鲜半岛与日本列岛之间的海域，国际上普遍通称“日本海”，只有南北韩认为这是他们的“东海”，因此建议你译为日本海。 试吃那人 01:31 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
Signature, please......... 编辑
I wrote the following on the Village Pump, chatroom, and my own discussion board. I hope you take a notice of it. Here is my gentle, gentle reminder... ^_^
- 在问题或答案之后签名：打四个波浪号（ ~~~~ ）。
保存页面之后，电脑会自动显示出名字和时间。
We really should sign our name (and date), or it'd be really confusing for everybody else (except you) as to who said what and when. Especially if somebody wrote right underneath your comment, then it looks like that person wrote your stuff too if you don't sign yours to separate the 2. And here is my sig: --Menchi (讨论页)Â 04:34 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
中国国旗 编辑
Template:TwChinaTable加入的中华人民共和国国旗合适吗？--百无一用是书生 (Talk) 15:16 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
蒙古地图 编辑
你不是说早晚中国化吗？虽然这是个趋势，但是在语气上有政治倾向。如果是我理解错了，请原谅。不过还是改成比较详细点好。--wulovery 09:05 2004年6月24日 (UTC)
- 你说的意思是不是翻译成中文？不过你的表达错误，是将蒙古同化的意思。--wulovery 09:09 2004年6月24日 (UTC)
- 呵呵，你的意思表达不正确，应该是“翻译”，而不是"汉字化"，建议你查查词典。--218.9.114.80 11:55 2004年6月27日 (UTC)
- 翻译啊? 哦... 说的也是. 汉字化不就同意思吗 "change into chinese" 的意思. 随便吧. "翻译"... 我会记住的 [[User:Ianm2000uk|ianm2000uk (22男/英国)]] 02:16 2004年6月28日 (UTC)
- 你那是直译，中国人都是说“翻译成...”，也有说“汉化”的，不过那只是对外文软件来说的，比如“把...软件汉化”等。--wulovery 14:03 2004年6月28日 (UTC)
- 交个网友吧，互相帮助，我的联系方式请看我的资料。--wulovery 16:26 2004年6月30日 (UTC)
Wikitravel 编辑
关于美国州别的template 编辑
关于美国州别的template, 改成州缩写排列好吗? 已经做好sketch了,请来看看,如果可以就换了,谢谢! Template talk:United States--阿福 11:52 2004年12月20日 (UTC)